Please post your response for the Salmon and the Dog fish here...by next Monday.
8 comments:
Anonymous
said...
The Duchess offers up her own little tale in which she relates the fable of the salmon and the dogfish to Bosola to her condition and her brother. She is the salmon and her brother and those that want to kill her are the dog fish. Her clear insult to Bosola is implying he is the mere dogfish with temporary power over the more naturally aristocratic salmon-herself and Antonio. It is a defence of Antonio’s low birth which is what all the characters frown upon as well as looking forward to her own death which is arising nearer. Her death will be the master day in which her life will be judged. She holds dignity and respect from the audience in the face of death and the fable offers her the opportunity to express her views of what is happening. She gives her views on morality and states she has the higher moral high ground when she says ‘my price may be the higher.’ Yet while she knows this, she is aware of her up coming death and knows it would do no good to beg or weep so instead she addresses it with dignity and intellectual comments.
The fable in the end of act 3 acts as Duchess' tale not only summarising the events so far but also as an insight to her morals which makes her a more dignified and humane character. Duchess tells the fable to Bosola, knowing that she is so near her death, she remains dignified and calm, which gains the respect and sympathy of the audience knowing her poor mistreatment. There could be a few interpretations of who is the salmon and who is the dogfish in the story: one could be that the fragile and valuable fish salmon, represents the duchess, while the dog fish is a representative of Bosola and the conniving, cruel brothers, as the fish is a fast and dangerous and a deceitful fish. The chase is an obvious chase of survival of the fittest, and although the female character of the duchess puts on a good verbal fight that is witty and intelligent in her responses, she is the weaker character being a woman and will get caught and eaten by her insestuous brothers. Other interpretations include the duchess being the dogfish and Antonio being the salmon: as she is the rebellious, dangerous fish that chases something innocent and pure that means no harm: Antonio. As after all, it is the duchess that leads this trouble which could represent her being both the salmon and the dogfish.
' I prithee who is greatest, can you tell?' opens the Duchess' fable with a questioning soliloquy to the audience. Such sets us up for what the Duchess is about to present in her story, asking us to think about who is actually the better person, which we can relate to her and Ferdinnd's encounter we have just witnessed on stage.
With this in mind, the first point of refernce I drew from the fable was the line in which the dog-fish questions the salmon as to why she is amongst their 'high state of floods'. From this you can infer that the Duchess is labelling herself as the salmon whilst the dog-fish is her brother Ferdinand, who is most direct of the two brothers in slandering the Duchess for re-marrying. This can be linked to Ferdinand in Act III Sc II when he questions the duchess "Dost thou know what reputation is?" Like the dog-fish asking the salmon if she realises what status is required to be at such high waters in the river, Ferdinand questions the Duchess as to whether she realises what it means to be amongst the wealthy, for to him her behaviour suggests not. The reference to ranking 'thyself with silly smelts and shrimps' also can be linked to the Duchess' marriage to Antonio, who is well beneath her status. Though she may not be that low herself, like the salmon, she 'ranks' herself there.
The final part of the passage sees the Duchess draw more upon the idea of moral worth and her plea to the audience, and perhaps a conviction to herself, to appreciate how despite who her brothers are, it does not make them good men. She remarks upon how in death, like the salmon, she will be even more worthy than in life. 'I'th'market then my price may be higher Even when I am nearest the cook and the fire' It seems here that the Duchess is aware that her death is soon approaching, yet knows that in her death people will see her for her true worth. This is added to by one of her final few lines of the passage 'Men oft are valued high, when th'are most wretched' It would be difficult to attribute such to any other than her brothers, for as their sister she sees that despite what everyone else may think of them because of their status' as Cardinal and Duke, they are of no moral worth, or much less so than her, regardless of the power they have over her.
In looking at the passage overall, the dog-fish is rude, abrupt and unwilling to accept change like her brothers whilst the salmon remains dignified and calm, which is in many ways a reflection of the Duchess in her dying moments.
Ignore the soliloquy bit I couldn't remember if she was alone or not (I'm at work so I don't have the book with me) but checked online quick and she's with Bosola. My 'bad'.
How is the fable of the salmon and the dog fish a fitting tale for the end of Act 3?
The Dutchess uses this to justify her marriage to Antonio, the dutchess relates to the parable of an exchange between a dog fish and an inferior salmon. The dogfish is in fact related to her brothers as they are willing to kill her. The Dog Fish animal is very violent and has two spikes on its back which are very poisionous. The dog fish is violent just like her two brothers and even Bosola who are all willing to kill her because of her marriage. The dutchess herself symbolises the salmon, this may be because when an Atlantic salmon reaches the age of two, it leaves its home in the North Atlantic and it begins a migration to the same place in the river or stream where it was born. It spawns and then returns to the ocean for two years. After building up its strength, it leaves the ocean and returns to the rivers to spawn yet again. This coukd symbolise The Dutchess as she leaves home and becomes strong again marrying Antonio and having children with him, and then returns home to her brothers when she is strong again. The fable being used with two fish that dominate large areas of the ocean, higherachy and high status couod be connected here to the fish. This could be because the dog fish (Ferdinand and the Cardinal) have more power over the salmon (The Dutchess) as they are more threatning towards the other. With the Fable being told by the Dutchess in a way in which she knows that her life will be ending soon, she in stays very calm like a salmon and stays calm towards Bosola the whole way through the fable.
Wasn't sure if you wanted the Reputation, Love and Death fable from Ferdinand on here? So I'm going to anyway while work is dead ...
Ferdinand tells the Duchess of the 3 (Reputation, Love and Death) and how the three part. Death tells them how he will always remain amongst battles and plagues, Love tells them how it will always be found amongst unambitious shepherds and those who have lost their parents. Reputation, however, asks not to be left for once he leaves any man he cannot be found again. By telling this to the Duchess Ferdinand is making his point that now he sees that the Duchess has lost her reputation, which is supported by the rumours of the people of Malfi, he no longer wishes to see her for with her reputation she is worth nothing, and she cannot gain her reputation back for 'If once I part from any man I meet, I am never found again.'
The Duchess calls upon the language of consumerism as a way to justify her marriage to antonio. For example, fro the Duchess the parable relates an exchange between a dog fish and an inferior salmon. The dog fish insults the typically stream dwelling salmon for entering the ocean and not providing the superior doff fish with proper defence.
'why art thou so bold to mix thy self with our high state of floods being so eminent courtier, but one that for the calmest and fresh time o'th'year dost live in shallow rivers, rank'st thyself with silly smelts and shrimps? and darest thou pass by our dog ship without reverence? '
Clearly this connects to the class conflict that the marriage between the Duchess and Antonio invokes and her brother's indignant rejection of Antonio's position. However, the salmons response to the dog fish relates to the value assigned through commerce:
' Thank jupiter, we both have passed the net / our value never can be truly known / till in the fisher's basket we be shown '
Thus, merit is determined by worth dispensed in the market based upon consumer demand, not preternatural noble birth:
' I'th'market then my price may be the higher,/ even when i am nearest to the cook and fire'
Similarly, for workers in a market based economy, the value of an employee is determined by demand of talents and work ethic of an individual. In this sense Antonio's value to the Duchess is also reflective of a more contemporary stance; the Duchess' desire for Antonio is apparently based upon the worth he has attained through his admirable personnel characteristics and his effective stewardship of her household:
' If you will know where breathes a complete man, i speak it without flattery turn your eyes and progress through yourself '
Thus, the Duchess' use of the fish anecdote as well as her marriage to the middle class Antonio illustrates the fact that in order to attain her goals, she must invest in a system that bestows her value based upon quality, rather than aristocratic high birth.
( this answer me and Fran worked on together we have each posted our own comments but our ideas are probably similar as we were struggling and so decided to do it together)
The salmon represents the Duchess herself and the dogfish represents her brothers and Bosola. The salmon is questioned harshly by the dogfish as to why it thinks it can be mixed with the ‘higher state of floods’. This reflects the treatment of the Duchess by her brothers and Bosola after she is married to and has children by Antonio as they too make her feel out of place in the aristocratic world. The Duchess then goes on to say that both the salmon and the dog-fish passed the net and escaped the ‘fisher’s basket’ suggesting that both are free to do as they like. Neither has superiority over the other. Her disapproval and disagreement with the way men are ranked highly and women inferior to them is clear in her statement that ‘men oft are valued high, when th’are most wretched’. She presents in this statement her view that it is morally wrong for men to be the superior sex and have women follow orders. Her marriage to Antonio is against the wishes of the men in the play and this fable demonstrates her view that it is not for them to decide her life’s path as they should be free to make their own decisions. The idea that both the salmon and dog-fish ‘passed the net’ mirrors the opinion of the Duchess that she is capable of making decisions herself and choosing her own path.
8 comments:
The Duchess offers up her own little tale in which she relates the fable of the salmon and the dogfish to Bosola to her condition and her brother. She is the salmon and her brother and those that want to kill her are the dog fish. Her clear insult to Bosola is implying he is the mere dogfish with temporary power over the more naturally aristocratic salmon-herself and Antonio. It is a defence of Antonio’s low birth which is what all the characters frown upon as well as looking forward to her own death which is arising nearer. Her death will be the master day in which her life will be judged. She holds dignity and respect from the audience in the face of death and the fable offers her the opportunity to express her views of what is happening. She gives her views on morality and states she has the higher moral high ground when she says ‘my price may be the higher.’ Yet while she knows this, she is aware of her up coming death and knows it would do no good to beg or weep so instead she addresses it with dignity and intellectual comments.
Hannah
The fable in the end of act 3 acts as Duchess' tale not only summarising the events so far but also as an insight to her morals which makes her a more dignified and humane character. Duchess tells the fable to Bosola, knowing that she is so near her death, she remains dignified and calm, which gains the respect and sympathy of the audience knowing her poor mistreatment. There could be a few interpretations of who is the salmon and who is the dogfish in the story: one could be that the fragile and valuable fish salmon, represents the duchess, while the dog fish is a representative of Bosola and the conniving, cruel brothers, as the fish is a fast and dangerous and a deceitful fish. The chase is an obvious chase of survival of the fittest, and although the female character of the duchess puts on a good verbal fight that is witty and intelligent in her responses, she is the weaker character being a woman and will get caught and eaten by her insestuous brothers. Other interpretations include the duchess being the dogfish and Antonio being the salmon: as she is the rebellious, dangerous fish that chases something innocent and pure that means no harm: Antonio. As after all, it is the duchess that leads this trouble which could represent her being both the salmon and the dogfish.
One and only yuliya.
' I prithee who is greatest, can you tell?' opens the Duchess' fable with a questioning soliloquy to the audience. Such sets us up for what the Duchess is about to present in her story, asking us to think about who is actually the better person, which we can relate to her and Ferdinnd's encounter we have just witnessed on stage.
With this in mind, the first point of refernce I drew from the fable was the line in which the dog-fish questions the salmon as to why she is amongst their 'high state of floods'. From this you can infer that the Duchess is labelling herself as the salmon whilst the dog-fish is her brother Ferdinand, who is most direct of the two brothers in slandering the Duchess for re-marrying. This can be linked to Ferdinand in Act III Sc II when he questions the duchess "Dost thou know what reputation is?" Like the dog-fish asking the salmon if she realises what status is required to be at such high waters in the river, Ferdinand questions the Duchess as to whether she realises what it means to be amongst the wealthy, for to him her behaviour suggests not. The reference to ranking 'thyself with silly smelts and shrimps' also can be linked to the Duchess' marriage to Antonio, who is well beneath her status. Though she may not be that low herself, like the salmon, she 'ranks' herself there.
The final part of the passage sees the Duchess draw more upon the idea of moral worth and her plea to the audience, and perhaps a conviction to herself, to appreciate how despite who her brothers are, it does not make them good men. She remarks upon how in death, like the salmon, she will be even more worthy than in life. 'I'th'market then my price may be higher Even when I am nearest the cook and the fire' It seems here that the Duchess is aware that her death is soon approaching, yet knows that in her death people will see her for her true worth. This is added to by one of her final few lines of the passage 'Men oft are valued high, when th'are most wretched' It would be difficult to attribute such to any other than her brothers, for as their sister she sees that despite what everyone else may think of them because of their status' as Cardinal and Duke, they are of no moral worth, or much less so than her, regardless of the power they have over her.
In looking at the passage overall, the dog-fish is rude, abrupt and unwilling to accept change like her brothers whilst the salmon remains dignified and calm, which is in many ways a reflection of the Duchess in her dying moments.
Ignore the soliloquy bit I couldn't remember if she was alone or not (I'm at work so I don't have the book with me) but checked online quick and she's with Bosola. My 'bad'.
How is the fable of the salmon and the dog fish a fitting tale for the end of Act 3?
The Dutchess uses this to justify her marriage to Antonio, the dutchess relates to the parable of an exchange between a dog fish and an inferior salmon. The dogfish is in fact related to her brothers as they are willing to kill her. The Dog Fish animal is very violent and has two spikes on its back which are very poisionous. The dog fish is violent just like her two brothers and even Bosola who are all willing to kill her because of her marriage. The dutchess herself symbolises the salmon, this may be because when an Atlantic salmon reaches the age of two, it leaves its home in the North Atlantic and it begins a migration to the same place in the river or stream where it was born. It spawns and then returns to the ocean for two years. After building up its strength, it leaves the ocean and returns to the rivers to spawn yet again. This coukd symbolise The Dutchess as she leaves home and becomes strong again marrying Antonio and having children with him, and then returns home to her brothers when she is strong again.
The fable being used with two fish that dominate large areas of the ocean, higherachy and high status couod be connected here to the fish. This could be because the dog fish (Ferdinand and the Cardinal) have more power over the salmon (The Dutchess) as they are more threatning towards the other. With the Fable being told by the Dutchess in a way in which she knows that her life will be ending soon, she in stays very calm like a salmon and stays calm towards Bosola the whole way through the fable.
(notes taken with Taylor, could be similar) Fran
Wasn't sure if you wanted the Reputation, Love and Death fable from Ferdinand on here? So I'm going to anyway while work is dead ...
Ferdinand tells the Duchess of the 3 (Reputation, Love and Death) and how the three part. Death tells them how he will always remain amongst battles and plagues, Love tells them how it will always be found amongst unambitious shepherds and those who have lost their parents. Reputation, however, asks not to be left for once he leaves any man he cannot be found again. By telling this to the Duchess Ferdinand is making his point that now he sees that the Duchess has lost her reputation, which is supported by the rumours of the people of Malfi, he no longer wishes to see her for with her reputation she is worth nothing, and she cannot gain her reputation back for 'If once I part from any man I meet,
I am never found again.'
The Duchess calls upon the language of consumerism as a way to justify her marriage to antonio. For example, fro the Duchess the parable relates an exchange between a dog fish and an inferior salmon. The dog fish insults the typically stream dwelling salmon for entering the ocean and not providing the superior doff fish with proper defence.
'why art thou so bold
to mix thy self with our high state of floods
being so eminent courtier, but one
that for the calmest and fresh time o'th'year
dost live in shallow rivers, rank'st thyself
with silly smelts and shrimps? and darest thou
pass by our dog ship without reverence? '
Clearly this connects to the class conflict that the marriage between the Duchess and Antonio invokes and her brother's indignant rejection of Antonio's position. However, the salmons response to the dog fish relates to the value assigned through commerce:
' Thank jupiter, we both have passed the net / our value never can be truly known / till in the fisher's basket we be shown '
Thus, merit is determined by worth dispensed in the market based upon consumer demand, not preternatural noble birth:
' I'th'market then my price may be the higher,/ even when i am nearest to the cook and fire'
Similarly, for workers in a market based economy, the value of an employee is determined by demand of talents and work ethic of an individual. In this sense Antonio's value to the Duchess is also reflective of a more contemporary stance; the Duchess' desire for Antonio is apparently based upon the worth he has attained through his admirable personnel characteristics and his effective stewardship of her household:
' If you will know where breathes a complete man, i speak it without flattery turn your eyes and progress through yourself '
Thus, the Duchess' use of the fish anecdote as well as her marriage to the middle class Antonio illustrates the fact that in order to attain her goals, she must invest in a system that bestows her value based upon quality, rather than aristocratic high birth.
( this answer me and Fran worked on together we have each posted our own comments but our ideas are probably similar as we were struggling and so decided to do it together)
Taylor
The salmon represents the Duchess herself and the dogfish represents her brothers and Bosola. The salmon is questioned harshly by the dogfish as to why it thinks it can be mixed with the ‘higher state of floods’. This reflects the treatment of the Duchess by her brothers and Bosola after she is married to and has children by Antonio as they too make her feel out of place in the aristocratic world. The Duchess then goes on to say that both the salmon and the dog-fish passed the net and escaped the ‘fisher’s basket’ suggesting that both are free to do as they like. Neither has superiority over the other. Her disapproval and disagreement with the way men are ranked highly and women inferior to them is clear in her statement that ‘men oft are valued high, when th’are most wretched’. She presents in this statement her view that it is morally wrong for men to be the superior sex and have women follow orders. Her marriage to Antonio is against the wishes of the men in the play and this fable demonstrates her view that it is not for them to decide her life’s path as they should be free to make their own decisions. The idea that both the salmon and dog-fish ‘passed the net’ mirrors the opinion of the Duchess that she is capable of making decisions herself and choosing her own path.
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